Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Hello and welcome to TaxVibe, a podcast by The Tax Institute where we peel back the layers of the Australian tax world. I'm Robyn Jacobson, your host and the senior advocate at The Tax Institute. We bring you the sharpest minds in the tax profession, digging deep into their unique insights and sharing nuggets of wisdom you won't find elsewhere. Always keeping it real and interesting. So sit back and relax and let's dive into the world of tax. One conversation at a time. We hope you enjoy this episode of TaxVibe.
I'm joined by Paul Hockridge, Chartered Tax Adviser and principal of Hockridge Advisory in Melbourne. Paul specialises in advising high wealth families and closely held businesses, as well as providing support for a number of accounting and law firms. Paul's niches include litigation support, property development and fringe benefits tax and salary packaging. Paul is a legal practitioner in Victoria, a chartered of tax advisor of The Tax Institute, a fellow of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, and a senior fellow and teacher at the University of Melbourne's Law School in the master's program. Paul, it's been a while but welcome back to TaxVibe.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Thank you Robyn.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So today we're having a chat about family and in particular marriage and relationship breakdowns. And Paul when I think about family law which is an area outside tax law, of course it's an intrinsic and an unavoidable part of modern living in relationships. So what I'd like to discuss with you today is how does family law interact with tax law?
Now we are recording this in person at the Victorian Tax Forum in Melbourne. And Paul yesterday ran a session on family breakdowns. So I'm really interested to understand what you covered in your session. And also let's explore some of the rabbit holes that people need to think about when they are going through a family breakdown. So let's start with what you covered in this session yesterday.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
The starting proposition is some people might think that tax issues on divorce are pretty straightforward because after all, there’s capital gains tax roll over relief, if only life were that simple. For a start, sometimes we don't qualify for CGT roll over relief, but if we don't there might be other reliefs, but there's a whole range, a whole myriad of of other income tax issues. So maybe let's take the blinkers off and say do we qualify for Div126a relief? But also what could all the other income tax issues be?
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So there's a lot to unpack here. In terms of perhaps a starting point. We know that the statistics on divorce and separation are not great. About 40% of marriages and 60% of de facto relationships come to an end. And according to the statistics, this is unchanged from the 1960s . When we look at the rate of divorce. And we also know that if you are in a de facto relationship, there is a higher rate of separation. That makes sense because it's a bit like try before you buy, and you ay not like trying on that particular garment, so you try another one before you actually buy the one you want. And in fact, that's six times more likely to have a de facto breakdown than a marriage breakdown. But regardless of the statistics and how often this happens, it does happen. And we know that practitioners are often very close to these relationship breakdowns. So perhaps start with the CGT, because that seems to be the logical place for people automatically think there's a rollover in place. So as you say, it's all simple. Firstly, how does the rollover work and why is it not simple?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
The first reason why Div126a might not apply is in essence applies where there is a transfer pursuant to an order of the court. So if Barbara, my wife and I were to separate, touchwood, that won’t happen. But if we were to separate and we were rational, mature individuals, you know, being a tax advisor and my wife's a medical scientist, if we sensibly and rationally divided up the assets and then went along and told our accountant and lawyer what we'd done. Oops, no CGT rollover relief because the asset transfer wasn't pursuant to an order of the court. Similarly, it might be that the assets aren't in our own names. It might be then, for instance, in the Hockridge Family Trust, and they're in a trust for a really good reason. And so it might be I want to transfer from that trust to a trust for Barbara. There is no rollover relief going from a trust to another trust. So the rollover works if it's any entity to a natural person, but only to a natural person. And so in that respect, the rollover provisions in 126a are quite deficient in dealing with a transfer that results in the structure that we had and we want to have on an ongoing basis.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
It's almost like the concession was always contemplating a very straightforward spouse to spouse or partner to partner. And okay, we'll let you do an entity to the former spouse or partner. But anything more sophisticated than that? No rollover. And of course, in today's world, so many people have structures and they may not want it to go to the individual name.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
And it might be in this century. There are so many people of male and female genders who are primary breadwinners, who are investors, business people. And the limits to 126a, don't help those people.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
And also, if I think about how things have changed when my grandparents, who have now passed away, got together, they were late teens, early 20s. They were together for more than 50 years. They married young, they had their white picket fence, and everything was all very straightforward in contemporary terms. These days, you often don't meet your spouse or partner until you could be further into your career. You've got wealth. You've built up assets. You know your career is very much progressed and if not established. And so it's a very different look to getting together, say, in your 30s, 40s or indeed even 50s and goodness knows there are still people getting married in the 60s and 70s, of course, compared to building wealth together from the very beginning when you're in your 20s.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
That's right. And given that the average age of divorce, when we look at the stats of the almost 50,000 divorces each year, the females are typically early 40s. Males are typically later 40s, and the in that sort of age period, there is often a significant degree of career development and asset generation. So that's why this applies. And when we think, well, who's going to look after these almost 50,000 people a year, it's very often going to be your small medium practitioners rather than the top end of town firms.Certainly top end of town families do work in this space. But often it'll be the small medium practices who need to be across these issues.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
You mentioned also that the roll-over relief is only available if there is a court order or a binding financial agreement. So let's say you and Barb did separate, but it was on such amicable terms that you wanted to avoid costs involving lawyers. You didn't want to go to court and you thought, we can sort this out ourselves. In that situation, you're actually disadvantaged because without the BFA or without the court order, you're not going to get the roll-over relief.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
No, that's that's right. And so then I'd be doing things like saying, well, what concessions are there in the tax legislation? For instance, might I get the main residence exemption if one of us becomes a non resident? Did that make life difficult for the main residence exemption. Might there be collectibles personal use assets. Again there's different rules there. Might I qualify for Div115 relief under the 12 month holding rule. So it's a case of then applying all of those other myriad.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So CGT discount.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Cost base adjustment. So sometimes people can overlook yes the effect of these.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah. So there's a degree of common sense here. If I've got a unit trust or a company and I transfer assets out of the unit trust or company as part of the division of assets. Clearly the entity I've transferred assets out of has decreased in value. Result is the tax legislation requires a cost base adjustment. Now, in my paper I referred to the ruling on point and for a start I'd say thank heavens is a ruling on point because reading the provisions is a nightmare. Unfortunately, after you read the ruling, I'm still losing sleep. So perhaps the takeaway is if I'm transferring value out of an entity, think to myself, gee, there could be a cost base adjustment here. The there might well be a cost base adjustment. Put some time aside because how that cost base adjustment rule works not straightforward.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Okay. Now Division7a. So we've got our very in-depth integrity provisions. And we could talk about this for hours if not days. But we've got rules dealing with private companies and how certain loans. And in this case payments can be treated as a deemed dividend. Now when we think of a payment from a private company out to a shareholder or associate, we just think of a payment being made. But when we look closely at the definition of a payment, it includes the transfer of property.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So can you talk us through what Division seven implications can arise when it comes to a relationship breakdown?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Sure. I'd actually go back a step and say an ordinary dividend under section 44 before we even get into Division7a. Is a transfer of money or property. Take a breathe, property so it catches asset transfers. Who would have thought you could Frank an asset transfer. But of course you can. So an ordinary dividend is a transfer of money or property out of a company, out of profits to a shareholder. If I'm transferring, say, to Barb. And Barb isn't a shareholder in Hockridge Proprioty Unlimited. That's when I go to Division7a. I've got a payment, a debt forgiveness, a loan to an associate of a shareholder. That's when I’m in to Division7a.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
And pausing on that because of course, if it's going from your company to her and she's not a shareholder, it can't be an ordinary dividend.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct. It can't be an ordinary dividend. So we let go of the ordinary dividend provisions. We go to Division7a, transfer to an associate. Clearly Division7a applies. And then we say is that likely to happen? Yes. We transfer assets out of entities all the time. One of the other regular transactions might be that Barb has pulled money out of the company. She owes the company money, and we want to clean the slate as part of the settlement. So it would be a debt forgiveness. Now, there could be issues with UPS. Let's park the UPS because, gee, that's hard, but let's just say it's a conventional debt forgiveness. We might say, well, how do these rules work? Because we've got Division 245 dealing with commercial debt forgiveness. Then we've got Division7a, 1o9f deals with forgiveness. And Barb's also an employee of Hockridge Propriety along with Paul. So how do these rules mesh.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So potentially FBT issues as well.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct, correct. And so the short answer is likely to be that Division7a is likely to trump Division 245 debt forgiveness, assuming it's a commercial debt, not what I call a personal debt and is also likely to trump FBT. Rarely would you be into FBT because normally there would not be a causal nexus between the forgiveness of debt and the employment relationship. The forgiveness is for other reasons, but nonetheless, think to yourself Div 245 commercial debt forgiveness, FBT, Division 7a. Division7a wins. That's the takeaway.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So there are a lot of different components, but we've also got a layering reprioritising.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct and unfortunately here there is a primacy rule, whereas with some other tax puzzles there isn't a clear primacy rule.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Now they've clearly thought of that. The franking is a really interesting question. So Paul, let's say I'm your advisor, whether accountant or lawyer, and we're working through this together. Now, if I am acting on your behalf, then we don't particularly want to mention that this can be franked, because if you are able to retain the franking credits in your company for your own use later on, then that is obviously in your best interest. If, however, I'm acting for Barbara, I'm going to be pushing really hard on her behalf for any payment that is made to her by way of a property transfer to be franked.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Absolutely.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
And ultimately this will come down to firstly negotiation. But secondly, the awareness of the different advisers acting for both parties. As to who understands what can be done and who can't. Now, obviously, if I'm going to push for this on behalf of Barbara, then you may or may not be aware that it can be franked, but we're certainly going to make you aware that it can be, and we would push for that. But as I said, if I'm acting for you, I'm not going to raise this no benefit her.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
It's highly likely that a conflict of interest will arise if there's even the slightest level of complexity. And so, with all of the pronouncements coming out of the Tax Practitioners Board in recent times, ethics and conflict of interest suddenly has taken on a whole new importance. And after all, who wants to risk losing their practicing certificate or the tax agent registration? If there's a tax agent registration.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Let's talk about this. So in the Code of Professional Conduct in the Tax Agent Services Act, there is a requirement to not avoid conflicts of interest but to manage them. So the code acknowledges that you could be acting for husband and wife or two parties who are partners in relationship with a de facto same sex couples, and you would need to manage that. Now, that's from a Tessa perspective, yes. Are there different requirements or code obligations when it comes to say the professional associations.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
They can be, in fact a really good one. A good indication of when this might come up is, CAANZ has a Conflict of interest guide, which was published in November of 21. So it's relatively recent. And one of the examples at the back is a situation where mum and dad say to Robyn, their adviser, you've looked after for years, Robyn would you please continue to look after us because we're separating on amicable terms a little bit down the path, you find a particular transaction where there's a tension which parties should be advantaged or disadvantaged. What do I say? And then you're scratching your head thinking, who will I act for? And the answer is not the one who's prepared to pay your bills. It's a more ethical question what the CA anz guide says. Robyn, stop acting for both. That's how you manage the conflict.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So even though TASA would accept that as long as you are managing it, you could continue to act for both or even one of them if you think that's the best choice. This particular guideline, if I can call it that, from, CA ANZ, is saying you've got to say something for both.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah. And there's really a sense in part because you accumulate knowledge in acting for both parties along the way. And that knowledge can't be taken back. So if you decide, for instance, to continue to act for the husband, what are the chances that over the next few years, transactions will come up where you're thinking is in formed by the knowledge that you've gained when acting for both parties.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Like a subconscious bias.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yes, or you've got information as a result of that previous relationship that you would not otherwise have, and therefore you could act to the benefit of one party, the detriment to the other. So really fraught with difficulties. And since 2001, and since the PWC fiasco, these issues have taken on a whole new importance. This isn't just some airy fairy issue that we can park.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
It's also worth mentioning that in this context of our conversation, we are focusing more on marriage and relationship breakdowns. But a family breakdown can include parents and children that could include siblings. Yes. And again, the same conflict type issues come up. So if you've got two brothers or two sisters who have been running a business together for many, many years and the relationship just breaks down irrevocably, then we've got exactly the same considerations.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Although of course no rollover relief I’m talking.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yes. And of course, if it's a discretionary trust and the trustee is exercising your discretion each year in relation to distributions of income or capital, some awkward issues need to be addressed.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So let's move on to some structural issues with entities. It is typical within family groups there will be normally more than one entity. There might be a collection of companies. There could be unit trust, discretionary trust. It could well be a self-managed fund and will get to superannuation shortly. But along with the establishment of those entities we've got certain office holdings. So you've got directorships, you've got shareholdings in unit holdings. There are the trustees, there are the appointors. They could be guardians depending on the trust deed. So a whole range of different executive positions if you like, and ownership positions unwinding these structures. It's one thing to transfer the shares or the units. And we're into our CGT rules for that or our Division7a rules because we're moving around CGT assets.But the control of these entities is something entirely different. Yes. And then we've got, without owning up a whole separate discussion on unpaid person entitlements. But UPES and loan accounts will, of course, hang off these entities. Yes. So how do we unpack? Well, how do we unravel this incredibly complex web?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Okay, The simple part sometimes is saying who is the shareholder? Who is a director of the corporate trustee of, let's say, a discretionary trust. And it might be having regard to many things like shareholders agreements and constitutions, that is not that hard to change shareholdings and appoint new directors, if that's the case. But as you were suggesting before, if we go to your stereotypical discretionary trust deed. We really need to look at who they appointor is because the appointor is the kingmaker or the queen maker, as the case might be they get to sack the existing trustee and appoint a new one. So we need to deal with what the deed says about changing appointors. That bit's absolutely critical. If it was a company in its own right or a unit trust, again, we'd look for shareholders or unit holders agreements to say what they have to say. And then we'd look at changing for instance, shareholding. If we are changing shareholdings, as you mentioned, might be a CGT event. One of the tricky things is we need to look at the constitution and see who appoints the directors, because sometimes it's a shareholder, but sometimes it's the directors who appoint directors. So don't assume. And even though we're probably getting pretty good at reading discretionary trust deeds these days before we do income or capital distributions, when was the last time you pulled out a constitution and read what the Constitution said? So this is a new path for some people to go down. And as I mentioned before, don't assume that it's shareholders who appoint directors. It could be directors who appoint directors.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
It's a really interesting point.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah. And then where that then takes us is we might say, gee, there are some losses in this entity and we're changing shareholders. So it might be to recoup the losses or let's not forget bad debts, because the bad debt rules kind of mirror the loss rules. Let's bear in mind we might have to satisfy the continuity of ownership test or the continuing business test. And if that's a trust, and we've got to go to those lovely rules and schedule to f dealing with trust losses, I would lose what little hair I have left. If I have to go back to them again, I should say some good news. There is the family trust election rules, the ability to revoke or vary. They are so much friendlier where we've got marital breakdown.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Because originally they just didn't cater to this at all. Yeah. So at least now we've got former spouse, we've got stepkids and those sorts of concepts that are incorporated into it.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah. So I guess where this takes us is when we deal with companies and trusts, we could have a CGT event on a transfer. We've had to look at controlling who appoints losses, bad debts, maybe cost base adjustments. When we transfer assets, our people should be getting a sense by now that, gee, what looked like being fairly straightforward maybe wasn't quite so straightforward.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
The story came across a unit trust many years ago where it was a, let's call it a corporate trustee, and he was sole director, or it was a single trustee, and he was the trustee that was running the business. But the way the deed had been set up, they were joint appointors. And when the marriage broke down, he was then still having to go to his former spouse to get her approval to make significant decisions when it came to the operation of the trust.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yes.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
And it became not just unworkable, but such a point of leverage for her that she was able to use that in the family law negotiations to get what she wanted because he needed to keep running his business. Yeah. And it's just something when everything is set up, it all seems fine. I think of another story where a typical trust deed might name the spouse by person, but it becomes very tricky when you set up a trust state and you walking into the solicitor's office. And yes, I'd like a deed and I'd like it to simply say my current spouse rather than the spouse's name. And your current spouse looks at you and says, well, why can't my name go in there? And you're just trying to keep the deed flexible in case something happens in the future. So can be difficult to navigate?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Absolutely.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Now superannuation, this is a whole separate area. Yes. We have now got rules that allow splitting of superannuation. And there's a whole range of ways this can be done. But when I think back to before these rules came into play and I'm going back many, many years now, we had a situation where, let's say it came back to you and Barb again. Superannuation wasn't able to be taxed in the case of the marriage settlements. Yeah. So what would happen is let's assume you had built up a office and then some of superannuation in your career, and Barb had been the one to stay home and raise the family amount of work, generally part time. So she has much, much less. And so the court would say, well, gee, we Paul, we can't touch your superannuation, but on equitable grounds, it's unfair that you get to keep all that.But then everything else is divided equally. So what we'll do is give Barbara the house, but we'll give you the superannuation. So it all seemed equitable on paper, except the reality was that she had somewhere to live, but nothing to live off in the future. And you had something to live off in the future, but no where to live now.So fortunately we've now got these splitting arrangements or flagging type holders. Again, briefly, can you talk us through what this looks like and also the impact of breakdowns on the binding death benefit nominations? Because sometimes people can forget about this.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yes. So dealing with a last issue first because it's relatively straightforward, assuming we had a binding binding death benefit nomination, I use that binding twice because sometimes what appears to be a bonding death benefit nomination might not be binding, because it might not have been executed in accordance with the terms of the deed. So please read the deed and check. Then when we refer to superannuation splitting orders, they're very much what they sound like. So even though I would always get a superannuation specialist involved because I'm conscious of how complex those rules are. And so that's why I always get a specialist involved. A super splitting award is just what it's just what it sounds like. Paul's got 2 million in his super fund. We want 1 million to go across to Barbara. How do we do it, given that we're not meant to touch the money in super until, you know, certain certain triggers? The super splitting order allows us to access those funds. Now, when you mentioned before about one party could get, let's say, a $2 million house and the other might have 2 million in super. Is that fair? It might be difficult paying the bills, but is it fair? That actually leads us to a whole raft of other issues. And so in my paper, I've dealt with seven family law cases because the family law cases inform our thinking on tax matters. Just like when we read some of the trust law cases, they inform our thinking on how Division6 and trust matters might , might apply. And it deals with issues like if there's an asset transfer and that asset is pregnant with a CGT liability, should the CGT liability be taken into account in dividing the assets up? Now, in the case of superannuation, you might say, oh, a super fund is a really good tax shelter, because it might be this 10 or 15% tax paid on income and gains. It might be zero depending on whether we've switched on a pension. It might be with the main residence that there's no CGT payable. But given those rules are about 26 pages long, forming a view that the main residence can be sold tax free is not straightforward. So those are the cases deal with with issues like when do we take an income tax or a CGT liability into account? Do we take into account the value of tax losses in the entity we were talking about before? Do we take into account selling costs, not just a CGT, but the selling cost? Do we take into account the catch up tax on dividends? If one party keeps an asset that's pregnant with retained earnings? So your simple example with super and the difference between the after tax value of super or a main residence, these family law cases do inform our thinking. With lots and lots of other transactions.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
On to estate planning. The key issue with Wills. And we still note about 40% of Australians do not have a valid will. And I find that it's extraordinarily how aware you become of the need for a will once you buy your first property for your home or an investment property. But we have a rule that says when you get married, your will immediately is invalidated. So if you do not create a new will, you will die intestate. And I don't mean interstate, I mean interstate. And in that case, you should arrange for new will when you get married. But interestingly, when you get divorced, it does not invalidate the will. And people have been caught out with this. It is assumed that it was invalidated or they hadn't turned their mind to it. And then all of a sudden the former spouse is well and truly alive. When someone dies and they make a very valid claim on the estate where the current partner may be thinking that things are automatically going to move to them. So your thoughts on all this?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
It's probably self-evident. Get an estate planning lawyer involved right from the very get go. So that, let's say effective from the time of a consent order. If there is a consent order, what I mean by consent order is Paul and Barbara still relatively amicable, they each engage through their own lawyers. The lawyers work out the proposed asset split, and then they take that paperwork along to the family court. And the judge says, do you people agree with this? Is it fair and equitable when everyone says, yes, it is, and the court stamps it? So that's what I mean by a consent order. Apologies to all the lawyers out there. I know that wasn't technically accurate, but hopefully people get a bit of a sense really from that time in particular. Then we need to turn our mind to wills, particularly if there are new relationships and there are children involved, adult children involved. If we don't take care of wills, we're lucky to have a real problem. Just as one of the takeaways here is, don't assume, we say, don't assume that the family lawyer is necessarily across all the tax issues. That's not disrespectful. That’s just recognising that if tax specialists find this stuff hard, isn't it reasonable to assume that the family lawyer might find this hard as well? So that's just being sensible and respectful. Similarly, from an estate planning point of view, when we're getting our wills re done, when there's been this trigger, don't assume that the estate planning lawyer is across all of the tax complexities for the very same reason. So again, that's just him being sensible is not being disrespectful.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
When I think of so many cases that have been heard over the years involving the more contemporary family. So you've typically got children from a former relationship and it could be the second part, not the third, the fourth, whatever number were up to. But so often we're seeing disputes about who controls the superannuation, who controls the fund, who controls the wealth in trusts. Because we talk in all the fairy tales about the wicked stepmother and Cinderella and so on. But there is some truth. And I'm not saying about the wicked stepmother in particular, but the relationship between stepchildren and stepparents, of whatever gender where you can get this enormous tension and a mismatch or a failing of to have a meeting of the minds and if the wishes of the deceased are not clear, if it's not well documented or if they're inconsistencies or things haven't been well executed, it can lead to the most disastrous litigation.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Absolutely. And where promises have been made over the years to family members that have never been fulfilled in the minds of those parties. Yes, we're looking at fertile ground for dispute.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
And I think also another case I heard about years ago where there was a father who passed away and brother and sister were then looking at what was going on in the company. Now the father, according to the daughter, had been gifting her amounts of money for many years. But the way they had been booked in the books of account of the company, whether this was the intended treatment or not. Is by way of a loan. So of course, when the brother took over control of the company, he then looked at this loan account that was owing from his sister and said well time to pay up, and she said no, no, no, no. There were gifts. There was no intention of ever repay those amounts. So this is why when we loosely over the decades passed, and I think back to my days in practice, when loan accounts was sitting there in some of these entities and they still are today, what is the true character of those amounts? It's not a case of just dumping it into a loan account. You just can't do that now.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah. So it might be that one of the takeaways is we start with the accounts and then we question whether the accounts are correct. And it actually makes sense to be quite critical, particularly in situations like that. And it might be that a red light flashes, for instance, when there have been no interest payments or capital repayments over a substantial period of time, that might cause us to question whether this is genuinely a loan. Because if it was a loan, why has no interest been paid? Why hasn't it been documented? Why haven't there being principal repayments? It also causes us to recognise that when relationships are to fall apart, very often the quality, the record keeping drops off. There seems to be a pretty good link between the two, and where that's particularly problematic is when we then want to do this division of assets. We say maybe the business accounts are a bit late, but at least we can get the business accounts prepared. But it might be that a whole lot of the assets are in individual names, and we don't have accounts for individuals because we don't prepare accounts for individuals, we only prepare accounts for business entities. And so there's often confusion and uncertainty in relation to asset ownership
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
...and valuation too.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Absolutely, absolutely. And when I mentioned before about some of the family law cases, the case in particular referred to in the paper dealing with the value to be attributed to tax losses, it seemed to me it was really a battle of the experts as to what value should be placed on tax losses. So yes, valuations a key issue, not just what's the land worth, but what are the things like? Well, what capital gains tax or income tax might be payable. Can we use tax losses. So it's it really is likely to be a multidisciplinary effort to resolve these things.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Also when we think about how we do have books of account for the business or investment entities, it's not an asset of the individuals. It's actually a liability, whether it's good old debit loan accounts. Yes. And I return to this when you've got joint loan accounts. And again, while everything is happy and the roses are red and the sun is setting and the cocktails are out, then it's all fine and well to have this joint line account because you just drawing the money out. But I can just about guarantee that when there is a relationship breakdown, one party is probably going to point the finger at the other and say, well, they're the ones who took all the money out. Yes. And when there's no record of who took what because it's all gone to a joint loan account, it's not great.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
No. And in the paper I referred to a number of private rulings. Two of them deal with situation where there was a difference between the apparent legal interest. Let's say it was 5050 between mum and dad and the agreement between the parties, which might be that the income expenses will be split in 20. So the difference between the agreement between the parties and the legal interests. And guess what the tax man said in both those private rulings. It's the legal interest. And also because they can be a delay between when the consent order is stamped and when title passes from Paul to Barb, or vice versa. And then you say, well, gee, what do we do with the income or the expenses during that gap period? And what the taxman said in one of his private rulings is income and expenses allocated in sorry, consistent with the consent order from the date of the consent order, even though there's this delay.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Three more quick things. Child maintenance Trusts, can you make quick comment on those..
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah, this might be described as the tax solution for the rich people. And the reason I say that is it might be that Paul and Barb are doing pretty comfortably when there's one household maintain, when we suddenly had two households to maintain, we don't have $1 million to stick in a child maintenance trust to provide for Sarah and Louise, our daughters. Whereas if we were super wealthy, that might be great. Let's put $1 million in a child maintenance trust, bearing in mind that if Paul's paying maintenance, it sounds misogynist. That's not my apologies there, but if Paul's paying maintenance, I don't get a deduction for it. And Barbara's not assessable on it. Yeah. So we say is there a solution? Well maybe putting some money into a child maintenance trust might be tax efficient because the income distribution might be subject to tax at ordinary rates under Dive6aa, not the penalty rates that usually apply to income distributions to minors.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
So if you've got children under the age of 18, yes. And you set up regular trust for them, then of course the division6aa rights applying, we've got quite penal under the 416 tax free. And he got from there with the different thresholds.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
But you're saying when we do a child maintenance trust, we've got the normal adult marginal tax rates that apply even though we're distributing to minors.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yes. Correct. And so that can make them very attractive. One of the issues to be addressed is at the end of the life of the trust, the remaining capital has to go to the kids. So if you were to put, let's say, a rental property, and that's a doubling in value every ten years, I'm not suggesting that's what happens with real estate, but let's just use that as an example.You might find if you set up the child maintenance trust early and it runs until, let's say, the kids finish uni rather than secondary school, that assets worth an awful lot query, whether you ever intended that you'd pass this asset to the kids? They might be driving this Ferrari at Melbourne University. On the other hand, what if you used the cash that you would otherwise use in your business to buy some new plant and equipment, transfer those funds to a child maintenance trust, which buys plants and equipment, which then rents that plant and equipment across to your business at market rates.And it must be at market rates. In that situation, your business might get a tax deduction for the rent paid across the rental income, net of depreciation, capital allowance deductions, but then flow down to the kids. And at the end of the life of the trust, most depreciating assets decrease in value. And so this problem of the big capital amount going to the kids at the end of the life of the trust might be far less of an issue.So it gives them.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
An income flow without the massive amounts of capital.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Correct. So we're spending a bit of time on child maintenance trusts.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Child support, just to make mention that we have now of course got reporting through STP. So single touch payroll to Department of Human Services. So we've got the reporting the normal payroll data to the tax office. But with phase two STP, we've also got reporting to other government agencies. And so there's just much more transparency around the amounts of income that people are earning to make sure that the amounts of child support are appropriately calculated. Insurance. What's the key point here?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Okay, the key point here is let's do with the life insurance, because that's what I'd call the big one. And I'd say the people don't shut off when I talk about tax and insurance, because some people might say, oh, this is boring. This is super important. The reason it's super important is we only take out life cover if it's for a big amount. Otherwise, frankly, we wouldn't bother. So if we get this wrong and the life cover, let's add $2 million of life cover is subject to tax. Boy, we've got a major problem. And this isn't just a client problem. This is a pie problem. If we didn't advise the clients. So let's just assume for a second that Barbara takes out a policy on my life for $1 million. She takes the policy out. She's the original owner. She's the beneficial owner of the policy because she's the one who makes the decision as to whether the policy gets renewed. So she's the owner. If we then divorce and we decide that she doesn't need that policy anymore, then it might be a case of I'll go along to the insurer and want to take out a new policy, and the new insurer might say, thanks, but no thanks, all because your risk has changed fundamentally from when you were 30 through till now. And so we might say, okay, this is the problem. There isn't an automatic right over a statement like there is in some policies. So I take out a new policy. If I take out a new policy, then on the original owner, that's great. But if I can't take out a new policy because the underwriter isn't friendly, then what I might do is have Barbara assign her interest in the policy to me. If Barbara assigns her interest to me, I'm not the original beneficial owner. Barbara is. And if I gave consideration to acquire the interest on taxable when the million dollars comes in. So did I give consideration to acquire my interest in this policy. Yes. Because the exchange of policies between Paul and Barbara as part of this divorce settlement, that's a consideration.It's not a question of what the value is. It's a case of was there consideration. So an assignment of a life policy could mean that this million dollars is subject to tax. And like I said, this isn't just bad news for the client. It's bad news for the tax adviser. The tax advisor should’ve picked that up.So really important issue.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Thank you. Another aspect I'm thinking of is if you don't turn your mind to this, and Barbara retains that beneficial interest in that policy because she took it out and she's been paying the premiums and renewing it. And there's no consideration given to the circumstances. And you two have divorced and you've moved on to a new relationship, and then you die.And there's this awareness. Oh, but he had a life policy in place, and all of a sudden Barbara's getting the proceeds and not your new partner. And there could be some that raised questions there.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah, they certainly could. That would be perhaps more likely to happen in the immediate period after the divorce, because there are probably premiums payable annually. And if the premium notice comes to Barbara, she's going to form a view. But if, for instance, two months before the renewal notice comes in, I’d off the perch. Barbara's going to do very handsomely out of this, and some other members of the family might be rather peeved.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Absolutely. But you're saying probably no more than 12 months that that could be a risk?
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Yeah, because the renewal notice has got to be a trigger,.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Agreed. Look, there's one more issue I wanted to cover and it's not, really the subject of this particular discussion because I have had this with Doctor Anne Kumar recently, but that of financial abuse and in particular with intimate partners. But I do think it's worth just bringing this into the tail end of our discussion, because when there is a relationship breakdown, there has in some cases, of course, been financial abuse that's been imprisoned. And this is a situation where there is coercion or control of a person's behavior or of their assets, or of their income, or denying them access to things. And when you've got a breakdown, they can in fact be people that are settled withtax dect. There can be people that are not able to access superannuation or find that the superannuation in their joint fund has been taken out. So it's a whole separate conversation and there's some work being done in this space. Yes. But I just think when we look at breakdown of family relationships. that of financial abuse is a factor that unfortunately can be omnipresent, and it's very important to be aware of that.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
Absolutely. In fact, when I was having my paper from yesterday, peer reviewed, zany from the tax office raised this issue with me, and she mentioned particular concerns about things like identity theft by intimate partners. And the message from her was, if you have a sense or a concern, this might be happening, contact the ATO. They're alert to it. This won't come as a matter of oh, never heard of this before. What we will do. The tax office is very alert to it. Far better for me to say the ATO is here to help, but it seems in this case, that's that's precisely the case. The ATO will certainly take your concerns on board.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Absolutely. Look, Paul, it's been a great pleasure to sit down with you and discuss all these issues. Family breakdown and marriage breakdown is not a happy time for those involved, but it's certainly something that you just can't bury your head in the sand and not turn your mind to the tax implications. So very grateful for your insights.
Paul Hockridge, CTA
My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA
Thanks for listening to this episode of TaxVibe I've been chatting with Paul Hockridge, CTA. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate and review TaxVibe wherever you listen. We welcome any feedback and suggestions to catch all the latest from TaxVibe and The Tax Institute, join us on LinkedIn. If you're interested in being at the centre of the tax conversation, a membership of The Tax Institute could be just what you need. Stay current and connected with tangible, real world benefits. Learn more at taxinstitute.com.au. Thanks again. Till next time on TaxVibe.